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Thread: Let's talk about mobility and TTK in Paladins

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    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Let's talk about mobility and TTK in Paladins

    Let's talk about mobility, that fun thing that 95% of pc players love!
    First of all, there is a difference between combat mobility ( all the abilities you use to confuse enemies or get above them, like evie's blink and shadow step) and tactical mobility (all the abilities you use to reach far/high spots quickly but aren't good in 1v1 combats, for example meave's prowl)... however most of the moviment abilities in paladins can be both tactical and combat (evie's soar, andro's dashes and meave's pounce for example).
    What's the problem with mobility in paladins?
    -it's too low in general
    -the amount of mobility that each class has isn't well balanced

    After all the post ob53 mobility nerfs people started complaining and asking for change reverts.
    Right now hirez and aoc's excuses are:
    -Hypermobility isn't healty for new players and the game
    -Games based on hypermobility aren't popular.

    The "hypermobility" excuse is not valid anymore.
    It could be valid 2 years ago when the characters were much harder to play and mobility in general was hard to counter...
    But right now the game is much easier and mobility is very ez to counter!
    Think about it:
    -Projectiles are now very fast
    -Most of the champions are hitscan
    -There is aim assist for console
    -There are A LOT of CC skills that make all the excapes useless.
    -there are autoaim and reveal abilties
    -hitboxes are HUGE
    -TTK is too low (and it must be fixed as well with mobility)
    Adding old mobility back won't cause any troubles!

    Some skills/talents/cards couldn't even be considered hypermobility but they still got removed and nerfed.
    Old buck's bounce house is an example.
    Bounce house was fair because buck's shotgun had the lowest dps in the game so his flanker potential was enclosed on really high sustain and mobility.
    Yes he had 3000 HP, self heals and two jumps but he used to deal 560 damage per shot and he had to be very close to the enemy to deal max damage.

    Tbh the only hypermobility talents and cards were old accelerant and old teleport.
    Old teleport deserved the nerf but old accelerant can be added back without problems, just reduce the self knockback from 50% to 40% and add some self damage like every other sticky jump from other games -_-
    With self damage people are forced to use poppy bomb smartly instead of spamming it and play aggro every time.

    So adding back mobility would only improve the gameplay and make some charcaters fun again.
    It won't solve all the problems ofc, there is still the ttk issue but at least some players will come back and the game would be enjoyable again.

    Also.. there aren't games based on hypermobility lmao, how can a game being based only on 1 mechanic?
    Such a terrible excuse.
    There are games with very powerful moviment abilties but there are no titles where who has the best mobility wins, it's an FPS game not fucking need for speed XD
    There is hypermobility in tf2 and guess what?? That game is still alive after 12 years and it's still well balanced and fun.
    What's wrong with mobility when you can counter and balance it easly?
    The game has the potential to handle mobility, let paladins be like 2 years ago!

    I also want to talk about TTK (time to kill).
    Currently ttk is very low, not the same as COD or CS:GO ofc but very close to overwatch.
    What's wrong with low ttk??
    Is freaking annoying and not competitive for a game like paladins, where there are many factors that help the players to get kills.
    Adding mobility back won't solve everything, Paladins is just not designed for low TTK.
    Lower the ttk, the more ofter you die in unfair ways.
    I hear so many complains like "lian and cassie deal too much easy burst" , they're right!
    Lian can make powerful burst combos at every range , 1200 eminence + 400 aimbot + 400 aimbot + 400 weapon shot that instadelete every SQUISHY only by aiming 2 shots and pressing 2 buttons that gives you free 800 dmg. Is this fair??
    Cassie deals 680 damage at EVERY RANGE with a SEMIHITSCAN arrow that can be combined with a blast shot that melts every character that tries to flank her.
    She also has a talent that deletes a tank in 4 seconds at every range only by aiming four semihitscan HUGE HITBOXES arrows...
    IS THIS FAIR?
    Oh , don't forget that she also has a CC ability and a powerful ultimate, the only fair thing she has is her roll.
    Fun fact, basically all the characters now have this easy spammable burst that deletes every squishy in 1 sec (because HP got nerfed too)
    Oh right, we can also INCREASE the damage with damage amp skills and talents like FIELD STUDY, LUMINARY and HUNTING PARTY.
    Oh right, we also have all the anti-mobility mechanics I mentioned before:

    -CC skills like cripple, slow, knockback etc.
    -HUGE HITBOXES (lian ult, imani fireballs, ash burst cannon, cassie arrows and much more)
    - a lot of hitscan characters and fast projectiles blasters like drogoz, dredge and bk
    - AUTOAIM and REVEALS* that can't be countered

    IS IT FAIR TO HAVE LOW TTK when we have all theese non-sense easy mechanics?
    I want to deserve every kill and death, not kill and die because most of the champions have now a ton of damage and only 2200 HP.

    Don't ignore low ttk and low mobility, unnerf THEM!

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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    mmmh, the mobility is fine right now, some champs need more eventually but certainly not bk who has one of the best escape in the game
    about ttk, it was raised to get out of burst meta, 1v1 situation aren't like in OW at all, you have plenty of time, of course in a team fight you can be killed very fast if multiple players shoot you at the same time, but that's one reason why you need to play smartly

    maybe some champs still are very annoying in terms of burst (thinking about maeve/cassie/bk particularly not just for ttk but other things (self sustain/mobility etc...)

    as for damage increase talents, I and many other think they should be changed cause it's too good, tyra especially also cause of reveal

    CC is totally fine, resilience is there, some champs gives CC immunity...

    autoaims? lex RMB is worst than his base weapon shots, lian's dash well is like a weapon shot, it's annoying but hum that's all (lian's rmb I consider it a blast ability not autoaim)
    also lian took huge nerf and I think she's now more balanced

    anyway if you don't see that most powerful are tanks such as khan and koa...you can't understand why you feel there is low ttk (one reason is called caut)

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    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangAce View Post
    mmmh, the mobility is fine right now, some champs need more eventually but certainly not bk who has one of the best escape in the game
    about ttk, it was raised to get out of burst meta, 1v1 situation aren't like in OW at all, you have plenty of time, of course in a team fight you can be killed very fast if multiple players shoot you at the same time, but that's one reason why you need to play smartly

    maybe some champs still are very annoying in terms of burst (thinking about maeve/cassie/bk particularly not just for ttk but other things (self sustain/mobility etc...)

    as for damage increase talents, I and many other think they should be changed cause it's too good, tyra especially also cause of reveal

    CC is totally fine, resilience is there, some champs gives CC immunity...

    autoaims? lex RMB is worst than his base weapon shots, lian's dash well is like a weapon shot, it's annoying but hum that's all (lian's rmb I consider it a blast ability not autoaim)
    also lian took huge nerf and I think she's now more balanced

    anyway if you don't see that most powerful are tanks such as khan and koa...you can't understand why you feel there is low ttk (one reason is called caut)
    There are champions who need more mobility buffs than others but still the mobility in general is limited and needs a buff.
    The lack of mobility talents and cards + all the counters for it makes everything worse.
    Bombking's poppy bomb isn't great at all, the amount of knockback is ridicolus and the only way to increase it is gone. Old accelerant should comeback since many players want a real sticky jump for bk with high knockback and self damage... it would be nice to have an aggro skill based playstyle/talent instead of another spam damage im backline like the others

    Talking about ttk you're saying that getting rid of burst combos that everyone used to call "burst meta" made the ttk higher??
    Many easy burst combos are still the game, healbots with low hp/survivability and mobility are still in the game.
    Getting rid of some META burst combos was a great choise but the ttk is still in the same state.

    CC is a strong mechanic, even if it can be countered by resilience, it helps a lot in fights.
    However, I'm not complaining about it, my point in very poor words was just "add more mobility and higher ttk since CC and other helpful abilities like reveals and autoaim exist."

    I'm aware of the strongness of tanks, but guess why they're so good rn?? Because they're basically dmg dealers with much higher sustain. Their burst combined with high hp, shields, self heals etc is simply broken.
    Off tanks like Khan, Makoa and atlas can rush and kill everyone thanks to their burst and certain abilties that gains them a free kill (hook and grabs)

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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    There are champions who need more mobility buffs than others but still the mobility in general is limited and needs a buff.
    The lack of mobility talents and cards + all the counters for it makes everything worse.
    Bombking's poppy bomb isn't great at all, the amount of knockback is ridicolus and the only way to increase it is gone. Old accelerant should comeback since many players want a real sticky jump for bk with high knockback and self damage... it would be nice to have an aggro skill based playstyle/talent instead of another spam damage im backline like the others

    Talking about ttk you're saying that getting rid of burst combos that everyone used to call "burst meta" made the ttk higher??
    Many easy burst combos are still the game, healbots with low hp/survivability and mobility are still in the game.
    Getting rid of some META burst combos was a great choise but the ttk is still in the same state.

    CC is a strong mechanic, even if it can be countered by resilience, it helps a lot in fights.
    However, I'm not complaining about it, my point in very poor words was just "add more mobility and higher ttk since CC and other helpful abilities like reveals and autoaim exist."

    I'm aware of the strongness of tanks, but guess why they're so good rn?? Because they're basically dmg dealers with much higher sustain. Their burst combined with high hp, shields, self heals etc is simply broken.
    Off tanks like Khan, Makoa and atlas can rush and kill everyone thanks to their burst and certain abilties that gains them a free kill (hook and grabs)

    poppy bomb is bad? just you saying that, you have lost all credibility, it's just an escape who can't be countered by cripple, that you can use to knockback enemies, and if you had known how to use it then you'd know that you can travel pretty far with it

    then if you want aggro just take a flank, bk is a damage and should stay a damage

    many of these combos don't one shot you if you are full, which increase TTK by at least one shot, which is a huge increase
    healbots are just players deciding to play like that, I have never played like a healbot and I never will, you can use damage talent for support and eve adapt your deck to your playstyle

    then if you still think ttk is too low, you can increase your hp on almost any champ by at least 50, and this 50 means that the enemy will probably need one more shot if for exemple they have a 2100 combo and you have 2100 hp
    not even mentioning that if you know how to play with shields, walls, clean caut, you'd see that the ttk isn't as low as you think

    CC exist and is healthy for the game, do you really want more maeve/evie champs? reveals? there are like 3 reveals in the game at the moment (not counting cassie cause it's an ult) strix which is fine and not used that much, vivian which you can destroy, and tyra which as I said should be changed cause it's broken
    autoaims? there are as I said 2 autoaims in the game and they aren't better than these champs basic shots, so how is this a problem? yes it's annoying for let's say evie, but every champ needs a counter

    tanks are good cause they put pressure on the enemy, because they usually have strong CC or shields, one thing I will agree is that khan's bullet storm should be modified to something else, that koa's hook needs all it's bug fixes (how fun is it to get hooked trough 3 walls and a floor) and atlas weapon damage nerfed or at least see a decrease in damage and increase in fire rate, something like that, or at least reduce damage when not charged, I don't know since I don't play atlas

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    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    If you think that poppy bomb sends you pretty far you've never played other games and never tried other sticky jumps.
    Sticky jumps work in a different way, they knock you a lot but they do self damage... bombking's poppy bomb does no self damage but his knockback is really limited, it is only good as a defensive knockback skill against enemies.
    And no, I don't want a poppy bomb buff, I just want to play the old accelerant again!
    As a onetrick lvl 60 bk that used to play very aggro with old accelerant I want to play that sticky jump playstyle again, old knockback wasn't fair but it can be fixed easly.
    You know, many talents allow you to play in different ways (damage healers, healer skye, damage skye, flank tanks etc), an aggro sticky jump playstyle for bk is just fun and "skilled".
    Keeping only 3 talents based only on spamming CC and aoe damage in backline just makes bombking boring and pretty much braindead. People want to play old skill based bk again so GIVE US OLD ACCELERANT BACK! The excuse "iF yOu WaNt To PlAy AgGrO PlAy FlAnK" is cheap and stupid. Also consider that drogoz and willo have much better mobility and can do be played aggressively even without talents.
    I repeat , 40% more self knockback and 500 self damage would be fine.

    *You're basically saying that if a bursty combo don't oneshot it is fair??
    You prefer a champion that takes away 2100 HP in 1 sec by spamming all his abilties over an agile skill based flanker like evie, meave and old buck?
    Lmao I'm sorry but your flank concept is wrong then, flankers aren't damage dealers. And bursty easy combos that delete every squishy in 1 second aren't fair at all.
    They're UNCOUNTERABLE, they take 0 SKILL and if you add the terrible mobility and other aspects that help you getting kills you just get a boring Not competitive game.
    It's a fact, ttk has been lowered TOO MUCH* and low ttk doesn't belong to a game like paladins.
    TTK will be fair again only when things will return as 2 years ago, when characters were more resilient, faster and evie and kinessa were the only ones that had powerful burst that however was not easy at all to use.
    250 more HP and a defensive item won't change anything.
    Healbot unfortunately isn't a playstyle, it's the current state of some healers like JENOS and YING. Lowering the ttk with HP nerfs turned many supports into fragile healbots with bad survivability, they're only picked for spamming heals/bonus damage and they get bursted down faster than everyone else if not defended well.
    See?? Low ttk , cancer burst and limited mobility, only caused balancement problems like healbots and FakeFlankers that can't be fixed unless you revert everything.
    You can think what you want of Reveals , CC and autoaim but with the current state of paladins they just make the gameplay frustrating.
    The meta is now "who deals more damage wins" because all the other aspects are gone, you're forced to play healbot or your entire team gets bursted quickly (unless off tanks like khan, atlas and makoa that are probably the ones that suffer less).

    And if you still think that the current ttk is fine ask to pros and watch old tournaments, you'll see the problems.
    (Also check steam chars and reddit post and see how many people dislike and quit paladins right now)

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    Beta Player Marquess TangAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driggydrug View Post
    If you think that poppy bomb sends you pretty far you've never played other games and never tried other sticky jumps.
    Sticky jumps work in a different way, they knock you a lot but they do self damage... bombking's poppy bomb does no self damage but his knockback is really limited, it is only good as a defensive knockback skill against enemies.
    And no, I don't want a poppy bomb buff, I just want to play the old accelerant again!
    As a onetrick lvl 60 bk that used to play very aggro with old accelerant I want to play that sticky jump playstyle again, old knockback wasn't fair but it can be fixed easly.
    You know, many talents allow you to play in different ways (damage healers, healer skye, damage skye, flank tanks etc), an aggro sticky jump playstyle for bk is just fun and "skilled".
    Keeping only 3 talents based only on spamming CC and aoe damage in backline just makes bombking boring and pretty much braindead. People want to play old skill based bk again so GIVE US OLD ACCELERANT BACK! The excuse "iF yOu WaNt To PlAy AgGrO PlAy FlAnK" is cheap and stupid. Also consider that drogoz and willo have much better mobility and can do be played aggressively even without talents.
    I repeat , 40% more self knockback and 500 self damage would be fine.

    *You're basically saying that if a bursty combo don't oneshot it is fair??
    You prefer a champion that takes away 2100 HP in 1 sec by spamming all his abilties over an agile skill based flanker like evie, meave and old buck?
    Lmao I'm sorry but your flank concept is wrong then, flankers aren't damage dealers. And bursty easy combos that delete every squishy in 1 second aren't fair at all.
    They're UNCOUNTERABLE, they take 0 SKILL and if you add the terrible mobility and other aspects that help you getting kills you just get a boring Not competitive game.
    It's a fact, ttk has been lowered TOO MUCH* and low ttk doesn't belong to a game like paladins.
    TTK will be fair again only when things will return as 2 years ago, when characters were more resilient, faster and evie and kinessa were the only ones that had powerful burst that however was not easy at all to use.
    250 more HP and a defensive item won't change anything.
    Healbot unfortunately isn't a playstyle, it's the current state of some healers like JENOS and YING. Lowering the ttk with HP nerfs turned many supports into fragile healbots with bad survivability, they're only picked for spamming heals/bonus damage and they get bursted down faster than everyone else if not defended well.
    See?? Low ttk , cancer burst and limited mobility, only caused balancement problems like healbots and FakeFlankers that can't be fixed unless you revert everything.
    You can think what you want of Reveals , CC and autoaim but with the current state of paladins they just make the gameplay frustrating.
    The meta is now "who deals more damage wins" because all the other aspects are gone, you're forced to play healbot or your entire team gets bursted quickly (unless off tanks like khan, atlas and makoa that are probably the ones that suffer less).

    And if you still think that the current ttk is fine ask to pros and watch old tournaments, you'll see the problems.
    (Also check steam chars and reddit post and see how many people dislike and quit paladins right now)
    I have played other games, and paladins isn't 'an other game'

    am not even gonna argue, think what you want even if ure wrong

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    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Both of us can be wrong , who knows. For now it's just sharing opinion and thoughts, then we'll see what hirez will do
    Let's wait for other people's answer and see what do they think about ttk, mobility, skill cap etc..

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    I for one am in a bit of a meh state about mobility.

    I do agree that mobility is basic asf right now with majority of the champs sharing the same old dash move with different variations. I simply detest how ground based most of the roster is these days. We have at best 2 flyers...

    Personally I would like to see a bit more unique mobility skills, but balence mobility with skill shot anti mobility moves such as cripples effects tied to abilities like net shot, impaler arrow, perhaps as talent options to counter and punish over extending high tier mobility champs fairly, without resorting to using and auto aim cripple shut down engine like jenos.

    The way I see it.
    Awesome Mobility is all well and good, but when you have a move that intantly gets you out of the fray.... e.g dredge mobility.... you sit there and wonder how are you actually supposed to dive the mofo when you are a champ with lacklustre dps or range and no control to draw out the fight.
    Then you consider if anyone on your team could provide assistance in this instance, but too few characters have abilites to hinder mobility, favouring damage numbers and combos instead.
    Thus a call for a few more skill shot or location based methods of cripples, roots or silences would be a nice feature to give utitliy to certain characters so they have defence against high tier mobility in a 1v1 sense and allow for an even battle if only for 1 - 1.5s, also providing a role as anti mobility supression without needing to get a secure kill.
    Then you design some solid anti CC, or endure though CC moves to negate the CC on champs that would suffer being in a low mobility state.
    Cause a good flank should have an ability to stay defended while semi disabled, like Ice Block and Reversal, or talent options that could be the retaliation zhin, or a CC cleanse on Buck Bulk Up Recovery.
    Damage are a "fight your way" out concept and should not have access to such defense moves vs cripples unless an ult is used, most damage have no moves to securely remove Cauterise in a fire fight (-dredge) which limits their positioning to always need some form of retreat if on the back foot, the constant threat of a potential cripple would allow damage to have mobility, but shut down aggressive and open use of mobility the way it currently impedes Drogoz.

    If the above occured, I would love to have all the mobilty in the world to shoot out of the fucking sky.

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    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyyDimitri View Post
    I for one am in a bit of a meh state about mobility.

    I do agree that mobility is basic asf right now with majority of the champs sharing the same old dash move with different variations. I simply detest how ground based most of the roster is these days. We have at best 2 flyers...

    Personally I would like to see a bit more unique mobility skills, but balence mobility with skill shot anti mobility moves such as cripples effects tied to abilities like net shot, impaler arrow, perhaps as talent options to counter and punish over extending high tier mobility champs fairly, without resorting to using and auto aim cripple shut down engine like jenos.

    The way I see it.
    Awesome Mobility is all well and good, but when you have a move that intantly gets you out of the fray.... e.g dredge mobility.... you sit there and wonder how are you actually supposed to dive the mofo when you are a champ with lacklustre dps or range and no control to draw out the fight.
    Then you consider if anyone on your team could provide assistance in this instance, but too few characters have abilites to hinder mobility, favouring damage numbers and combos instead.
    Thus a call for a few more skill shot or location based methods of cripples, roots or silences would be a nice feature to give utitliy to certain characters so they have defence against high tier mobility in a 1v1 sense and allow for an even battle if only for 1 - 1.5s, also providing a role as anti mobility supression without needing to get a secure kill.
    Then you design some solid anti CC, or endure though CC moves to negate the CC on champs that would suffer being in a low mobility state.
    Cause a good flank should have an ability to stay defended while semi disabled, like Ice Block and Reversal, or talent options that could be the retaliation zhin, or a CC cleanse on Buck Bulk Up Recovery.
    Damage are a "fight your way" out concept and should not have access to such defense moves vs cripples unless an ult is used, most damage have no moves to securely remove Cauterise in a fire fight (-dredge) which limits their positioning to always need some form of retreat if on the back foot, the constant threat of a potential cripple would allow damage to have mobility, but shut down aggressive and open use of mobility the way it currently impedes Drogoz.

    If the above occured, I would love to have all the mobilty in the world to shoot out of the fucking sky.
    I agree with you, we need more mobility but also more skillshots that counter it instead of stupid annoying combos that lower the ttk and makes everything frustrating.
    We should have very mobile flankers with more mobility but lower burst, most of the flankers have imbalanced ranged burst which is often compensated with bad mobility. Skye,Moji,Koga,Lex, Androxus (unless you use reset and dash range) and buck.
    Evie, meave and zhin are well designed flankers, they have some overpowered damage talents like StreetJustice, Rouge Gambit and Yomi but they could be adjusted.
    More mobility and less burst for flankers please hirez.
    I'd also like to play a flanker with Low dps but incredibily good 1v1 potential thanks to high sustain, mobility and HP! Basically let us play the old 3000Hp buck again in some ways, it looked fun!

    As you said I don't think damagers should have defensive antimobility skill, the only adjustement I would do : Fix overpowered damage, combos and burst, fix cassie, lian and give them a little more HP and mobility like 2 years ago, to make them more resilience and able to defend from very mobile flankers.
    A vivian or tyra with turret design 0 mobility + a ton of damage is boring.. I'd like to see more aggressive damagers like drogoz and willo.

    Supports should have the CC skillshots , less healing output and FUCKING MORE HP!
    Let them be good even if not protected well, stop with this healbot concept: position well , spam heals and then die in 1 sec.
    In the current state of the game, more healing output is needed but when we'll get rid of op burst , low ttk and low mobility we can just let supports heal a few less and be more resilient.
    Nerf cauterize if needed but stop with fragile healbots please!
    Some supports have already a good kit, grover has a throwing cripple, great and fun mobility and good self heals.

    Tanks are the ones that should have more anti-mobility counters, expecially point tanks like inara, barik and nando.
    They're slow, resilient but they should never fight and die to a flanker. Even who hasn't mobility can handle high mobility characters, the GAME can handle high mobility characters, just balance it well and stop with this casual annoying shit!

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