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Thread: Some potential changes for Pip

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    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Some potential changes for Pip

    So, more often than not, a lot of balance changes I see for Pip, but more often than not, they never seem to be something that would actually be good for the character. There are some changes that, on paper, might sound like a good idea, but with actual execution, wouldn't actually be a good thing. Additionally, Pip has always been in a bit of a weird spot: He's a support champion, that can be played as a full fledged support, but can also deal decent damage to boot and can be considered a full-fledged DPS in addition.

    However, there are some small things I would say to change, even as a person who plays Pip. For the most part, he is rather balanced, with some huge issues that he has: For starters, his hitbox. They gave him a visual redesign a while back, and his original design was was a lot taller in comparison, and and even had a larger head. This hasn't been changed, and this really does need to be addressed. It feels like it's literally double his size. Additionally, with the removal of Mischief, cards like From Above should be brought back to their former glory: Pip usually gets the short end of the stick with changes like this, hell, they even renamed a skin he had due to Strix getting a skin with the same name.

    However, I'm just gonna list some changes that could be done for each playstyle.

    DPS (Catalyst):
    For starters, the damage buff is a little too much, but at the same time, not by a long shot, It's one of those things where it is only a little bit overtuned. It currently sits at a 40% damage buff, which is a tiny bit overdone in my opinion, but it only needs a tiny change, roughly 5%, so instead of 40%, 35%.

    In addition to this, a change to Moxie might not hurt, maybe making it it instead 8% per level instead of 10%, this way it won't be too intense of a change.

    One final thing for a potential change to Catalyst, is to make it add an additional second to the cooldown of Healing Potion and Weightless. This way, it would make the sustain a bit rougher if you can't secure any assists or kills, and would make it more rough for him to safely go in and out of a fight to secure kills, which is in my opinion, a big reason as to why Cassie is rather dumb in the DPS department.

    Support (Mega Potion):
    The biggest issue with this talent, is just how loadout dependent it actually is. In my opinion, just like Catalyst, this talent only needs a tiny bit. A single second being reduced from the cooldown of Healing Potion would make this feel a lot better to be able to consistently spread your potions out more, in addition to just making the potions more consistent in general.

    Another smaller change that could be done, is to increase the radius of healing potion by a small amount, such as 5% or something.

    Another thing that really does need changing for this, is to simply make Pep in the step useful. It currently is a dead card that shouldn't be in any deck (much like Sturdy, but story for a different time). Way back when, this card used to be able to speed yourself up as well, and lasted for 2 seconds. Decent, not great, but decent. One change I thought could make this good, is to increase the base speed buff, say 20%, with 2% per level after, making a 30% max increase with Pep in the Step 5. This way it can actually be a decent filler, instead of feeling like a waste of a loadout slot. Remember, before you say that would be crazy, you have to realize that other champions can do a similar amount, can safely add points to the card, and do so for a much longer duration (Pip's is 1.5 seconds, and was a stealth nerf that was done when they said it only made it not affect Pip any more).

    Hybrid (Combat Medic):

    Now, Combat Medic does need some love. There is a lot that is wrong from this talent, and some good idea was made with it. A talent that forces you to be firing more, and should, theoretically, enable your teammates to be a bit more aggressive with 600 HPS with a 1200 burst heal. However, the big downside to this, is that you don't generate ult charge from healing with your launcher, and you don't get out of combat. Some changes for this are kinda simple (the first to change how out of combat healing should work: If you don't deal damage with a weapon shot/ability, your timer shouldn't be reset). Additionally, an idea I had for this was to make it apply Healing Potion card effects (save for Reload) on every other shot. Pep in the Step and Gift Giver should be obvious. Medicinal Excellence however, would increase the AoE for the healing part of the potion (with a Healing Potion explosion visual being present), but not the damaging part of it. Additionally, sucessful heals generate 1% ult charge per ally hit. Why so little? Well, you can hit multiple allies with it every other second, as well as dealing damage, and healing with healing potion gives about 4-6% (give or take).



    These are just my opinions, so feel free to leave feedback and what not.

    Also, my signature is out of date, and I'm too lazy to recreate a thread about Pip bugs, so when I'm feeling up to actually doing that, I may just fix it.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
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  2. #2
    Beta Player Baronet driggydrug's Avatar
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    I want old acrobatics back on pip, it looked so fun and balanced.
    I alson want an HP card for him. 50 bonus hp per level or even a base hp buff

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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Not as experienced as you with Pip, so I'm asking. I personally think Catalyst is fine. Why are you suggesting nerf on it?

    I love the 1sec cd reduction on potion, when using MegaPotion, that would totally make sense to support a double-tank composition that, we all know, is never grouped up.

    I personally would like to see Acrobatics return, since Pip was probably the only champ able to use 3 completely different play styles: healer, damager and flanker. In general, unveil the mystery. When you use Combat Medic and you shoot in a big fight with allies and enemies in it, your shoot is considered heals, dmg or both (heals allies and dmg enemies at the same time)? I swear, I still can't understand it.
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    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Not as experienced as you with Pip, so I'm asking. I personally think Catalyst is fine. Why are you suggesting nerf on it?

    I love the 1sec cd reduction on potion, when using MegaPotion, that would totally make sense to support a double-tank composition that, we all know, is never grouped up.

    I personally would like to see Acrobatics return, since Pip was probably the only champ able to use 3 completely different play styles: healer, damager and flanker. In general, unveil the mystery. When you use Combat Medic and you shoot in a big fight with allies and enemies in it, your shoot is considered heals, dmg or both (heals allies and dmg enemies at the same time)? I swear, I still can't understand it.
    The reason why I personally say to nerf catalyst a bit, is just due to it being a bit overtuned. It's not as crazy as something like Big Game, but it's definitely a bit too strong when compared to the rest of Pip's talents, hence why I considered just a minor nerf to it.

    And the reason why I don't want acrobatics returning, is simply due to that playstyle not really working now, unless you entirely change Pip's kit. He would essentially be a really underpowered Buck with more head than body. This talent was also supposed to be the original, bridge the gap, talent: enabling Pip to get to better positions for both dps and healing, he's a damage and support hybrid, not flank.

    Also, as for your question, I personally don't play Combat Medic: it's lacking a lot to make it viable right now (I seriously think that the change idea I had may make it work. Imagine someone with basically +30% movement speed constantly), but the weapon shot, for ult charge, would be considered damage. Healing allies with CM, as well as SD, doesn't seem to generate ult charge. However, for your credits, it can be considered both, since you did both I believe

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    Beta Player Sovereign Prince SiderumNocte's Avatar
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    I'll say I'm fine with both your proposed ideas to Mega Potion and Catalyst.

    As far as Combat Medic there are truly multiple things you could to make it better that would suite it just fine.
    In like 85% of situations I actually prefer CM to MP.
    I think it's viable right but definitely takes some knowledge on how to minimize and get around the pitfalls of the CM.

    CM does have pitfalls and they definitely make it the tougher talent to use.

    I would be fine the changes proposed to the Ult Charge and Out of Combat healing although they would probably take EvilMojo a long time do.

    I think a change that would both make the talent far better and take less time to code would be for an increase in the Weapon Shot Radius and the Healing Done by about 50 or so.

    Although just about anything to make talents better is a plus in my book.
    Pip needs some love.
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    Beta Player Emperor Valkure's Avatar
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    Thanks for the explanations. Still, I don't think Catalyst is a problem. Average Pip can't do much with it, only good players can get good results and that's what I consider the real definition of balance.
    Can you further detail this? "And the reason why I don't want acrobatics returning, is simply due to that playstyle not really working now, unless you entirely change Pip's kit."
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    Beta Player Grand Prince M3RC3N4RI0's Avatar
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    I just checked Bettermeta and Catalyst has 60%(!) popularity compared with Mega potion only 26%. I only play Pip as healer but if he is that unattractive as healer he maybe needs a buff for his healing play style. Even Grohk is 50% played a healer, Pip just 40%.

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    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiderumNocte View Post
    I'll say I'm fine with both your proposed ideas to Mega Potion and Catalyst.

    As far as Combat Medic there are truly multiple things you could to make it better that would suite it just fine.
    In like 85% of situations I actually prefer CM to MP.
    I think it's viable right but definitely takes some knowledge on how to minimize and get around the pitfalls of the CM.

    CM does have pitfalls and they definitely make it the tougher talent to use.

    I would be fine the changes proposed to the Ult Charge and Out of Combat healing although they would probably take EvilMojo a long time do.

    I think a change that would both make the talent far better and take less time to code would be for an increase in the Weapon Shot Radius and the Healing Done by about 50 or so.

    Although just about anything to make talents better is a plus in my book.
    Pip needs some love.
    My biggest issue with Combat Medic, is that there are way more downsides than there are upsides to the talent. Slower ult charge, no consistent self healing, no ammo to deal with flanks if they check you properly, and a really passive playstyle. In my opinion, a thing that makes Pip really strong right now is just the fact that his ult is as strong as it currently is. Him not having that up nearly as often with Combat Medic is a huge issue to make it not strong enough, and cards for healing potion in that deck, save for like, reload, are mostly useless as you're having to spend a lot more points into ammo management basically. I mostly want to see what healing potion cards applying every other shot can do for it, as I feel like that could make it more interesting, especially if they change out OOC healing works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkure View Post
    Thanks for the explanations. Still, I don't think Catalyst is a problem. Average Pip can't do much with it, only good players can get good results and that's what I consider the real definition of balance.
    Can you further detail this? "And the reason why I don't want acrobatics returning, is simply due to that playstyle not really working now, unless you entirely change Pip's kit."
    The only issue Catalyst has right now, is that it is overperforming on basically all skill levels for Pip right now. It's slightly, ever so slightly, overtuned right now, and just needs very minor tweaks. As for the whole acrobatics thing needing a whole kit rework: The way flanks used to work (which the talent was again, meant to capitalize on being able to position yourself better to heal and damage more) was high mobility, lower DPS. Now however, flanks are basically more mobile DPS. Pip would essentially be an extremely watered down Buck. Sure, he can position better, but 600 DPS with a bit of a slow is laughable, especially since Buck can just shred in some situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3RC3N4RI0 View Post
    I just checked Bettermeta and Catalyst has 60%(!) popularity compared with Mega potion only 26%. I only play Pip as healer but if he is that unattractive as healer he maybe needs a buff for his healing play style. Even Grohk is 50% played a healer, Pip just 40%.
    It's not that the support playstyle is unattractive, hell, it can be one of the more interesting styles that he has. The only issue that Pip has, in my opinion, is the fucking awful meme that is still spammed to today of, 'lOl pIp FlAnK' which just makes people only play him as it to basically enforce it in my opinion. It's also that Catalyst is in a much better position at the moment when compared to Mega Potion. CDs are less punishing for Catalyst, you have a strong heal, and good DPS, and good mobility.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
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    Just a silly idea

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    Pip...

    Healing Potion
    I really enjoy Healing Potion as an ability but it needs to gain some form of heal over time in order to synergize with kills made by allys you heal earn you eliminations. This would allow pip to potentialy gain more recovery out of using his heal to aid someone else when combined with kill to heal. Also considering the recovery provided by investing in healing allies with Healing potion heals you, pip would gain more recovery in using it on allies over himself. All it needs is a weak healing over time value (like 120persec) but a duration of 3s.

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    Beta Player Prince CatManDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyyDimitri View Post
    Pip...

    Healing Potion
    I really enjoy Healing Potion as an ability but it needs to gain some form of heal over time in order to synergize with kills made by allys you heal earn you eliminations. This would allow pip to potentialy gain more recovery out of using his heal to aid someone else when combined with kill to heal. Also considering the recovery provided by investing in healing allies with Healing potion heals you, pip would gain more recovery in using it on allies over himself. All it needs is a weak healing over time value (like 120persec) but a duration of 3s.
    You say that, yet, from my experience, when I finish a match as healing Pip, I tend to have a ton of assists if I didn't get a lot of kills, and usually only a few assists if I got a ton of kills. With the way healing works, whomever you healed has a ~5 second window to get a kill in order for it to consider it as an elim for you, which is plenty of time. A heal over time would just be silly, and would give you a 100% uptime on this window essentially, which isn't needed (albeit, if it actually considers you as part of an elim during that). As of current, I do think his window of getting an assist is perfectly fine. Hell, you should also be dealing damage to help with that as well.
    Protect your supports please... They want support too!
    Support main/Pip main. Greatest healing: 230,070 | Current goal: 200,000 achieved! Take a look at it! Woohoo!

    Just a silly idea

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    Fix the Pip bugs! There are 40 of them, so can we fix them please?

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