Fix burst meta, increase ttk, #makepaladinsgreatagain

[KiritoXtreme]

After a lot of thinking I've come to realize that the game was pretty perfect (at the very least a lot better than now) in terms of balance before the Legendary Cards, or Talents now I should say, came.

This game has a lot of problems - bugs, balance issues, no fps difference between a gtx 1060 and a r7 260x (really? really hirez? game is that bad optimised) and others but the ttk is really becoming a problem now.

JUST REMOVE BURST META, OR IN OTHER WORDS INCREASE TIME TO KILL. That's the gist of what needs to be done to introduce some balance and fun in the game. How you ask? Remove any and all forms of damage increment talents. (If that will increase TTK way too much then just buff the base kits - but keep the increment less than 10%) Rework them in favor of more fun ones or serious ones. Like Lian Death and Taxes is good, but it could use a little nerf (maybe 75%?); it doesn't increase base damage but instead adds something "extra" on the base kit, like a talent should be meant to be. Willo's Nightshade on the other hand is just plain annoying and bad to deal with. Same with Cassie's Impulse talent. The new street justice is ok-ish since it can activate only once at 35% and not like previous Street Justice. These are a few examples but I know there's a lot more that exist like tyra's hunting party and torvald field study talent.

Feedback on Makoa reworked talent - Its a good start, make others similar.

It's just a suggestion, to bring back the old paladins with long matches and balanced TTKs, the current paladins is just getting boring day by day. Sure its fun to deal damage and pew pew enemies to burst them in 2 seconds but its the same thing every time nowadays - either I stomp you or you stomp me. What's the point in enjoying such a game? Somewhat along those lines, I really liked the Rise of Furia event that removed all talents. It was the base game no extra advantages over the enemy team, just pure skill involved. Nowadays its just about how OP the talents are on the champ I choose. I'm pretty sure most of the old players that left the game will come back if the balancing gets good.

Well that's 2 cents worth suggestions Hi-rez, I can't force you to do it since its your game to make or break. Its just a suggestion.

PS. Pretty sure this entire thread is proper feedback without a hint of rant present for Walla to point out.

Just gonna say this before anyone else says that "This game is a competitive fast paced game TTK needs to be low", you're not exactly right, base kits are already pretty good. I'm not saying to remove talents completely, just the damage increase ones.

The only bonus damage I am ok with is ones that are already inherent to the champion, maybe like drogoz mark (fix the bug that gives bonus damage to everyone as It's been spotted in one of KamiVS's latest videos), and tyra's base hunter's mark (15% is okish, please remove the 25% from talent)

[VisionaryWitch]

I disagree. The TTK factor is good as it is, and mistakes are punished heavily. It is not like Willo will burst entire teams down from the other side of the map. If you make a mistake with positioning/zoning or if you let someone slip by, you get punished for it. Team fights can take very long, and first blood can take a while as well at higher ELO & ranks. If you run straight in and get bursted down, you kind of deserved it. Besides, how would increasing the TTK ever work, with the way how support works on this game (including Torvald)? The game has a lot of high survivability factors. If you find yourself dying too fast on a consistent basis, you might want to reevaluate your approach and tactics.

Furthermore, Makoa's new talent is nothing but a troll talent. Please don't make any more of that.

"PS. Pretty sure this entire thread is proper feedback without a hint of rant present for Walla to point out." WAS THAT A RANT ABOUT HAVING YOUR RANT POINTED OUT?! omegalul (just kidding, obviously.)

[Valkure]

Community is asking for higher TTK since... don't know, when I've joined the forum almost 2 years ago, they were ALREADY asking for higher TTK. But now TTK is insane. Half of the times, I die for I don't even know why.

We don't want more heal-per-sec on supports, we want less dmg on flankers and some DDs. Give them back mobility and lower their dmg. Give supports back their HP, escape abilities and dmg, so they can survive. Give tanks back their tankiness.

If we'd wanted to play CoD, we would be playing CoD. We want the time to apply some strategy on this game. Increase TTK.

[VisionaryWitch]

I really can't relate to this, but to each their own I guess.

[MiniMarquess]

The TTK factor is good as it is.

Sure.

Androxus = 2/3 headshots to kill a support/dmg/flank (0.72s-1.08s).
Kinessa = 1 headshot (1.4s) -but she needs more time and she's ez to kill-
Lex = 4/5 shots (no headshots) --> 1s-1.25s.
Viktor = 11-13 bullets (no headshots) --> 1.1-1.3s.

Cassie = about 1.5s. (but with high burst dmg - 1180/1520 in a shot)
Drogoz = Fire+Salvo is a kill (≈ 3000 dmg).

Maeve = up to 3745 dmg in a Pounce - good night tank -


BK = 2-3 bombs --> 2070-3240 dmg in 1.4-2.1s (area dmg) is more balanced.

But if you pick a suport or a front line…
Ash = 5-6 direct hits (4.5-5.4).
Pip = 3-4 direct hits (3-4s).

Sure.
TTK is ok and burst dmg is good. It is what makes this game great. And maybe that's the reason why Drogoz is a must-ban. Ops… wait a minute… am I wrong?

[Valkure]

@ Mini: I suggest you to not waster your time. I already had this discussion with Visionary. It is not a matter of math, it is just that s/he likes the low TTK. S/he is aware that they need just 1 sec to kill you, but s/he likes it.
It's just a matter of tastes, you can't make someone change his/hers.

[VisionaryWitch]

I'm quite sure this is the first time we've met? Unless you go by another name elsewhere.

Androxus is somewhat fine I guess. The damage is high, but Androxus is hard to play and a case of high risk high reward and it is not like it is easy to get that damage output.
Kinessa I do understand, although.. I think the damage itself is fine, the hitboxes however are not. If the hitboxes made sense, and snipers would actually have to be precise then the damage would be fair, until then it is not and I won't act as if it is fine the way it is.
Lex is really easy to take down with any champion, I rarely ever lose to a Lex. If anything is broken about him, it's the wallhax.
Viktor I feel like could use a bit of a damage nerf (a small one at that), but at the same time it would make him flank food. But I can see where you're coming from.
Cassie is really strong, I understand your complaint on that. But personally I just think she's really strong, not broken.
As for Drogoz, I dislike him entirely. I do agree with you there.

As for Maeve, that was an extremely situational example. That's only valid when a Leviathan Makoa has below 35% so that her Street Justice talent becomes active. Highly situational. That's like saying Cassie has 3K+ dps, because she can use Big Game on a Makoa.

Pip does kill pretty fast, for he is a support after-all. A lot of tanks have sufficient damage as well, Ash is just a bad example.


Again, I do see where you're coming from and what you're trying to say and I'm not trying to bash on your opinion. I'm just a really tactical and by-the-book type of player, and thus I strategize (or at least try to) to avoid getting killed (fast) and how to be efficient while I'm alive. With good positioning, it does take time to kill but during in-your-face scenario's it doesn't. That's where the tactical part of the game becomes relevant.

As for the math, the math only works when people stand still and eat all the damage. More often than not this will not be the case. There are a lot of ways to avoid receiving damage, and this is true for every champion on every map.

I hate to be that person but, look at some PPL matches. They play the very champions you complain about, yet it takes minutes for either team to get first blood. It's not like you're constantly spawning and being killed.

That's just my two cents, like Valkure said: it is a matter of taste.


I just take all variables into consideration when I judge the TTK of a game, rather than just the math in highly unlikely scenario's.


EDIT: Something I do strongly agree with are insta-delete ults. Those are bollocks and need to go.

[MiniMarquess]

I've never said those champion are broken.

What I want for Lex is 25% more dmg and to know he's hunting me (you, know "revealed").

Ash is the perfect example, she needs more love. I know Terminus has higher aod dps, but the range is much smaller.

3s for Pip is with Catalyst and he needs to be quite near to direct hit (or 35% less dmg).

Cassie is strong, not broken, I agree.

Drogoz is broken.

Yes, Koa best talent is Leviathan. When he ulti, usually, he's low hp, if he takes 2k dmg (about 1s) Maeve can melt him. But she can do more than 1500 vs a tank (about 4500hp), and Mother Grace - Eathern Guard cannot save Inara, nor the shield can save Nando, Khan, Terminus…

Viktor is easy to kill just with burst damage. His dps is quite insane (30% more?!?), no one can fight with him, you need to surprise him (if you're a flank oc) or to burst him down.

Kinessa is really weak at close.

Andro is OP. 520 dmg per hit, 1444 dps. Too much. If you're playing him good you cannot miss 1st head shot, then 2 hits and, game over. His range is 300 units (with ridiculous falloff) so he can kill at distance (he's the best flank at distance), but if you mannage to go close to him, he can melt you with 700 aod (now impossible to miss) each 0.6s. He's OP.
Where's the risk? He's a flank, he has same risk than Evie, Skye, Maeve, Talus… (if someone can see me, if the team is working togheter, if the dmg looks back and help the support… I'm dead), but he can still "fly" (and heal) and become immune (Reversal).

[VisionaryWitch]

I think the way Street Justice is right now, it's fair. She thrives in team fights but can't do that much alone anymore, and that is fair in my opinion. The old street justice was really broken though, but it's no longer the Maeve that can demolish tanks in 1v1s. Another factor as to why I take the current TTK is fine is the out of combat regeneration, it would turn into a game where people run away before they die and would just heal up moments later and come right back at you. For as long as out of combat regeneration exists, I think the TTK is fine the way it is (minus some obviously broken champions/skills Drogoz or yOuRe MiNe).

I think Andro is one of the harder flanks to escape with, Reversal can be baited and he can be shot behind. Netherstep leaves him somewhat vulnerable too. In terms of escaping, I think Rune and Pounce etc work better. What I do find to be a bit much, is the current state of the punch. That bothers me a lot more than the revolver.

EDIT: Would also like to add that this has been a pleasant little debate so far, I appreciate that.

[dimasfromru]

What's meta? Maybe i'm too old for new games
Everyone dying less? So basically you asking for CU 2.0? Agree. And they should do it right, lvl100 cards w/o ability to buy levels,so nobody can say it's play to win.
But in such case, for many players who prefer to jump in pew pew and jump off, it won't be cool.
I love my old Sony Ericsson k750 but now smartphones the best.